Jason Hartman starts the show by sharing some wisdom on success. He looks at commodities investing and has an optimistic view. A lot is happening with new construction. The recent boom in construction is pushing prices of materials up. In the second half of the show, Jason brings on Josh Simon. They look at the different types of commercial real estate and how they were affected by the pandemic. Josh gives insight on rent collection during this time. They look specifically at New York and California real estate. Then discuss specialized asset classes like self-storage. They end the conversation with zoning issues.
This show is produced by the Hartman media company. For more information and links to all our great podcasts, visit Hartman media.com.
Welcome to the Young World show where you’ll truly learn how to make, spend and invest money for an awesome life. Get the real life stuff that wasn’t part of your school curriculum. Young will gives you innovative new ways of dealing with your finances, as well as the skills and tools you’re going to need to survive and be successful out on your own. Let the young wealth show be your GPS to take you from clueless to clued in. Here’s your host Jason
Jason Hartman 0:50
Josh Simon 2:29
Yeah, it’s partially empty. But we’re getting we’re in Arizona. So we’re slowly opening back up
Jason Hartman 2:34
could be here. Well, hey, what’s going on in the commercial real estate market just kind of broadly, we’re all hearing tales of distress and disaster. You know, give us a little background and, and tell us who you are and what you do. So people understand better.
Josh Simon 2:50
Yeah, thanks. And thanks for having me. So we’re i a commercial real estate development company based here in Scottsdale. As you can see from the slide, we’ve developed 184 process In 22 states, we’ve done this mostly single tenant net lease retail. So think Starbucks Dollar General Dollar General Tractor Supply, or Riley, Verizon, as well as small multi tenant retail buildings, you know, that might have a nail salon, a haircut place, as well as some medical office buildings in the past and then also redeveloping former grocery stores old Walmart. So we’ve kind of run the spectrum on the retail side. And so we’d like to consider ourselves a pretty good expert in the retail space. You know, I think one big thing you know, the news paints is this major disaster in retail. And, you know, I think you kind of have to break that up into a couple categories here you have, I think, the most pain being felt in the mall space. And what this is, you know, with JC Penney filing for bankruptcy and some of these nordstroms closing you know, 16 full line department stores, this is gonna force a mall shake out, that was going to be happening nonetheless, over then. next three to five years, it’s going to speed that up. The next level you have is what we call power centers. So think of power centers as multiple box users. So a target and a Ross and an Office Max and a TJ Maxx and, you know, a shoe store, those centers have been hurt pretty badly, too, because they were not considered mostly essential retail. And so I think that’s going to continue to have a lot of pain, where there’s a ton of opportunity. And I would say some of the brighter spots in retail have been the single tenant net lease side of the business, depending on the type of tenant grocery anchored, which obviously, grocery stores considered an essential service. And so those shopping centers, and some of the tenants have remained open through this period.
Jason Hartman 4:45
Yeah, absolutely. So for an investor, the triple net lease type properties are those the the safer bet in the retail space now.
Josh Simon 4:55
Yeah, and you’ve seen demand go up and I think what you know on the single tenant, you type of 10 minute is and before you know towards the end for the last few years right before COVID it was experiential is what everyone wanted and now it’s essential and oh essential is you know O’Reilly auto parts for example, and your other auto parts stores were considered essential because you got to keep the wheels turning your auto repair your dollar stores because they sell essential services and obviously grocery stores and so you we’ve seen demand pick up for essential type retail.
Jason Hartman 5:32
Absolutely that’s that’s really interesting and people have been stocking up. You know, one part of that equation does surprise me a little bit. Has Amazon and the other internet e tailers. have not been able to capture much of the autoparts market. I see online I see them trying, but auto parts stores. People aren’t just buying all that stuff online. I know some of it’s a little large for shipping and so forth tires, obviously, your mufflers, Against, but maybe address just the auto parts part specifically.
Josh Simon 6:04
Yeah, and so interesting thing about a lot of the auto parts like Riley and you know their competitors for example, they do have a lot of consumer b2c, but actually they have a huge b2b business and so what they act as is like a kind of a supply mechanism for the repair shops down the street in their areas, and the Do It Yourself component of fixing a car. I don’t know about you, I’m not very mechanic friendly, I could probably get my windshield wipers and some basic stuff. But if you get any more complicated, it’s very hard to go online and figure out what part you need. And if you need your car fixed you need to fix right away and so these auto parts stores act as suppliers to these repair shops that are right by them
Jason Hartman 6:48
got it. So they’re really distributors. They’re really like Amazon warehouses.
Josh Simon 6:52
Yeah, a large extent they can be and they’ve competed and Amazon
Jason Hartman 6:56
hasn’t been able to compete with them so far in that in that domain, okay, very interesting. Very interesting. Okay, good. So experiential versus essential. That’s a great way to put it. And I remember when I think it was one of the first major experiential shopping, not malls, was not indoors, I guess. But outdoor centers that opened. And I lived in Orange County at the time when Irvine spectrum opened. And that was a big deal. I mean, everybody around the country was talking about that center. And of course, it had retail, but it also had a lot of entertainment component to it. So talk to us about the experiential thing, just help us better understand or define that. And like you said, that’s what every developer wanted, every investor wanted. But now it’s completely shifted because the experiential has shut down, right? And now they want essential. So they tell us about this dichotomy. if you will.
Josh Simon 8:00
Yeah, and so experiential, you can think of the whole shopping center. But I also think of it as, hey, what’s something that you can easily replace online. So experiential could be going to a basketball game. It could be going to the gym going to a f 45, or an orange theory class orange theory class, because that’s experiential. And so what’s happened is everyone desired to have these tenants in their shopping center. And obviously, those were the first tenants forced to close you look at movie theaters, that’s an experiential tenant. And who knows, like what is the short term future of theaters, what kind of changes will go on but I also think it’s an exciting time to be in retail because I think there’s gonna be a lot of good concepts that are made stronger through this process. And I also think it just it’s it reinforces the idea of having a balanced portfolio investments you know, I think for us, like a, you know, a key is is Hey, do we have Drive Thru is our multi tenant buildings. Are they close to the street where, hey, you know, we’re not forced to have to drive traffic back to the theater and we can’t be seen from the street. So if you’re up on the street, people are still driving by. And even if that theater was closed, you still you know, are able to get traffic passing your storefront.
Jason Hartman 9:18
Very interesting, you know, one of the weirdest stores that opened I remember in the Irvine spectrum years ago, and I gotta tell you this one, because this doesn’t strike me as experiential very much, but it was back when and you know, I guess for some reason this faded out, when everybody there were all these commercials on the radio for CT scans of your body. And I remember in Irvine spectrum, this beautiful sort of high end CT scanning place opened, and it was almost It was like a spa. And I thought, Oh, let me think to someone, go out to dinner. And hey, you know, let’s go get a CT scan before Dinner.
Josh Simon 10:03
And after dinner, I get one or
Jason Hartman 10:05
Yeah, before and after service or that just struck me as a very unusual thing. But you know, they have the entertainment for the kids, they will have a merry go around, they’ll have a ferris wheel, like some interesting experiential stuff in there. And that’s just interesting. So talk to us about online sales, if you would.
Josh Simon 10:24
Yeah. And so what we’ve seen in talking to our tenants and just, you know, being so active in the market is the online trend has definitely grown. And so we’ve seen people that have never done clicking collect online grocery ordering, they they’ve done it for the first time, and that number is going to speed up. But we’ve also seen how important brick and mortar is. People still want to go to the grocery store and you’ve seen the pickup of tenants that were deemed essential, you know that that has continued to grow. And I think one long term trend that comes out of this is if you think of a grocery Store and what you call the center store, your paper towels, your cleaning supplies. I think that becomes even smaller in the future because I think those items are commodity you can order those online you can get those from Amazon pantry or from you know, whoever your grocer grocery store provider is online. And so I think over time the grocery store is going to get smaller because of that center store isn’t needed as much
Jason Hartman 11:26
center store. What do you mean when you say that?
Josh Simon 11:30
So if you picture when you go into a grocery store what’s on the right products on the left is your needs maybe your wine your your dairy? And so what do you have in the middle, it’s all the goods that are your paper towels, your toilet paper, your cleaning supplies, your dog food, the center store is not a very profitable place in the growth. And that’s why you’ve seen sprouts and Trader Joe’s they’ve done so well because they’re not really that center store. They have a very they’re very focused, they have an app You know that niche that they appeal to
Jason Hartman 12:02
they’re really focusing on food items more than supply items right so
Josh Simon 12:07
you think of sprouts, sprouts you know by you they’re really good with produce fresh produce for their vitamins. Trader Joe’s is not known for their dairy but they’re known for some of their kind of special you know, packaged goods right that you can only get there and so what you find is people make multiple trips to different grocery stores to fulfill their needs. I know my fiance she goes to Safeway Trader Joe’s and sprouts all in one quick trip then kind of does the mall and gets the different stuff. That’s great. Okay, good stuff. So the the center store is going more online, and the perimeter is more in needing the bricks and mortar right. Is that the point? Exactly. I mean, I don’t know a lot of people ordering their steaks, their produce, they want to see it. They want to touch it. They want to walk around The store.
Jason Hartman 13:00
Yeah, I agree. And you know, it’s funny because I buy almost everything online. But the one thing I still do and people ask me, I still go to the grocery store, I prefer to go in and get my food. I’m mostly a shopper of the perimeter because that’s where the healthier stuff is, you know, they say, if you want to be healthy, don’t shop in the center of the store, you know, because that’s the preservatives, right? The fresh chips on the outside. So good stuff. Okay, so drive thru and to go in this this is it’s amazing, Josh, how well capitalism works, and how quickly so many businesses adapted to the change. And they were, you know, restaurants and all kinds of services that became curbside or delivery.
Josh Simon 13:46
Yeah, and I see this trend continuing. You know, it obviously forced unfortunately, it’s going to hurt smaller business more proportionally, that doesn’t have a online presence or ordering capabilities, but I think it We’ll force everyone to really clean up their act and get it, you know, get that going much faster than they obviously anticipated. The other thing that’s been interesting is how fast and I give a lot of credit to a lot of states and their governments because they have adapted quickly to allow like cocktails to go, for example, who would have
thought you could walk in and buy a greyhound to go? I didn’t
Jason Hartman 14:22
know you could do that. By the way, I visit my restaurant here.
Josh Simon 14:27
Yeah. And even in California, we were in Newport this past weekend and you were able to get to go Margarita is at a bar and take them home. So I think
Jason Hartman 14:36
it just out of curiosity, were those sealed in some way?
Josh Simon 14:39
Yeah, they have, they put a piece of tape over the straw. We put the straw in so that way it’s you know, sealed. But I think that’s a trend that you know, could that might stay in some capacity post COVID. And so, I think having to go and drive, especially a drive thru lane, I think we’ll see the evolution of like a pickup lane. I think what hopefully happens with municipalities is, hey, they’re more open to the importance of drive throughs and creating pickup lanes. And hey, when you have for example, Panera has an app that, you know, you can turn on your like location beacon. And when you get into the parking lot, it notifies the staff in the store that, hey, you’re here for your food, and they’ll bring it out to your car. And so I think all these things are going to continue to just speed up the progression that was already going to happen.
Jason Hartman 15:30
And you know, there are a lot of really good things coming out of this difficult time. A lot of efficiencies that we might not have seen for five or 10 years are being adopted quickly. And it’s great. I mean, it’s really a great thing, just efficiencies everywhere with online meetings, etc. And all of the things you just mentioned, those will stick with us. telemedicine, you know, my veterinarian, and my doctor. Both have sent me things saying Download this telemedicine app. It’s like I’ve been requesting that for years and they said, No, we don’t do telemedicine. Well, now they do finally. So these efficiencies, increase the profits of those businesses. And they’re greater efficiencies for the consumer. So the consumer can spend more time living their life or working and being productive one or the other. And so these things are really quite good for the economy. It’s creative destruction, and it’s just happening a lot faster than it did before. So there’s some good stuff here. Okay. rent collection. Josh, we’ve been reading and hearing a lot about this on the news in the newspapers, lots of articles saying rent strikes now on the residential side, which is, which is my domain and yours is on the commercial side. I gotta say the news media has totally overplayed this, at least with our investors, my own portfolio, everybody’s paying rent or clients. Pretty much everybody. We don’t have a actual statistical survey on this. But the anecdotally, the rent collection has been quite good. You never collect 100% of your rent. That’s the first thing people need to understand. When they look at these stats. There’s no month were any big landlord ever gets 100% rent, okay, there’s always a collection problem or two in the portfolio. These stats, how are they looking in commercial real estate?
Josh Simon 17:29
Yeah, so this is our stat. And then keep in mind these are from these are pre referral deals made so that 85 is probably more like a 90 92% from April and that 90s probably 95%. Now, and what I mean by deferral is, hey, we worked out, you know, some deferred rents for 90 days while the tenant wasn’t able to open and so we found that just communication is just so important, and the landlord tenant relationship is really important. I think, depending on You know, where we go back to the beginning of our conversation? What type of asset Did you own malls? I mean, their collections super low right? power centers, you know, probably I’ve heard between 20 and 40%, and then grocery anchored 60 to 80. And then you get to some of the more these just a mostly essential portfolio and where we are, and you’re up in the 80s and 90s. And so we feel really lucky, you know, at what we’ve always kind of picked, as, you know, our investment thesis. And so, I think that continues to improve, to improve for everybody going forward. The biggest challenge is going to be is Where do you live? And so we’re back to normal here. We have people coming into our office now. And obviously, with social distancing, but Arizona, you can go to the gym, you can have we had dinner out last night, you could pretty much do anything with social distancing right now. Whereas, you know, when we were in Newport Beach, they were just slowly starting to open up and most California still remains shut or the majority of the populous counties in our people were in mask there. Um, you know, at the airport people were wearing masks in the grocery stores, you know, outside on the street. No, but you know, I was on a flight, commercial flight and it was probably 80% fall and everyone had masks on. So, you know, I think people are taking it really seriously and obviously the media is gonna hype up certain examples like when they send a picture from the Ozarks of everyone partying, there’s always going to be that example but I feel even with the opening these, the restaurant tours and the gym owners here are taking it very seriously. Okay, that’s good. That’s good.
Jason Hartman 19:37
So triple net and the sales of those properties.
Josh Simon 19:41
Yes, I think an interesting thing has been is they’ve delayed the 1031 day depending on you know, when you fell into your identification period to July, what we’ve seen is there’s been a flight to certain types of assets, Dr. Thurs essential, you know, Dollar General O’Reilly different types. have auto dollar stores. And so we’ve seen that there’s been a lot of demand, pricing hasn’t changed, but it’s remained stable. And so I think product for good quality tenants that have a drive thru that are essential will remain stable and you know, more investors will continue to continue to desire them. You know, an interesting thing we’ll see what happens as the year develops is if, you know, multifamily rents have kind of flatlined for the time being, you do have a decrease in 1031 transactions, which means there’s a decrease in buyers down the road for these types of properties. You know, but the, you know, the counter argument to that is, is not a lot of people are starting construction on new things right now, just given the environment, it’s harder to get financing. You know, we’ve been fortunate, you know, just because of our tenant lineup. We have seven closings this week, three new projects that you know, to our ground up, one’s a remodel of an existing building, and then we’re selling a handful of assets as well.
Jason Hartman 20:59
So One thing on balance, I think we need to mention for the listeners is that, you know, we’ll have a worldwide audience, hearing this presentation 189 countries, but mostly in the US, and you are in an environment and your properties, I’m guessing are all in an environment where you’ve got a low rise suburban environment. Right. So this is obviously going to be very different in a place like San Francisco, New York City, downtown LA, downtown
Seattle, isn’t it?
Josh Simon 21:30
Oh, for sure. I you know, I think it’s gonna I think that’s also a long term trend that will continue is the value of something being located next to a transit center isn’t nearly going to be as desirable as something maybe out in the suburbs, and I think that’s why places like Phoenix, which is done pretty well through this whole, you know, COVID period, I think we’ll continue to see really well good growth because we are spread out we don’t have the mass transit infection spreading and so I think long term trends you know, for the West Coast overall, California is its own animal are
Jason Hartman 22:06
its own set of problems.
Josh Simon 22:09
Sound set of problems,
Jason Hartman 22:10
California is the problem child of the country. And New York’s then second one, I’d say. But yeah, no, that’s that’s a very good point. I mean, you know, we’ve been talking about this mass migration for two and a half months that we predicted is going to happen and now the media is finally catching on from high density environments to low density environments. And I think the two dangerous the highest danger zones that are sort of necessity, participation are elevators, and mass transit. Those two are probably the most dangerous places, at least in my opinion. You know, going to a gym is optional, going to movie theaters, optional, that kind of stuff but elevators so when you’ve got buildings that are three four storeys and above, people are pretty much in an elevator. And in Phoenix, you don’t have that type of thing. So that’s good and in city and mints that are very urban, even once you get out of your own house, you know, everything is crowded, the street is crowded, the sidewalk is crowded, the the restaurants are crowded, the coffee shops are crowded. And of course, there’s new laws and regs about that stuff, limiting it. But still, whenever I’m in New York City, if I want a cup of coffee, I got to go to a crowded coffee shop, they’re all crowded. That’s just the way it is. So I don’t know how they’re going to serve that many people there because in a normal environment, there’s just been a shortage of supply of anything you want those environments. So how do you enforce social distancing? I don’t know if it’s even possible.
Josh Simon 23:39
It’s tough, right? Like six feet away. Like how do you do that? Even in an eye, it’s just really hard to even do that in an office environment. You’re walking down the hall, and you know those coffee shops in New York. I hope they just can reopen because if you’ve been shut down now for what is it going on 6075 days and they can still be closed for a couple months more You know, I find it probably pretty disheartening you and I can imagine as business owners if we weren’t able to transact, you know, it’s gonna be an interesting case study looking forward, you know, a year on which business is open or who relocates but you know, I find that places like Florida, Phoenix, people are gonna want to be here.
Jason Hartman 24:18
Yeah, no, i i agree with you any, you know, there’s going to be a mass migration to the suburban markets, I call it The Grapes of Wrath. 2020 It’s from john Steinbeck’s, old novel, right, you know, and that’s, this is a whole new world we’re moving into. Very interesting, okay, talk to us about lending operations, e commerce kind of where all this stuff is going.
Josh Simon 24:42
Yeah, so for lending I was almost gonna put declining but it is negatively affected, but I do see some stability in it. If you’ve got the right type of product and you have existing lending relationships. There’s still money out there. The debt is cheap. You know if you can refinance or do any kind of floating rate. I mean, now’s the time. I really believe that and then you know, from an operations standpoint, it really just depends on really where geographically where you’re located and what kind of type of business do you have. We saw a huge demand and spike in in hotel rooms and Phoenix over Memorial Day weekend. And then up in Sedona, there was a big increase in demand. And then obviously, we talked about ecommerce that’s going to continue to force brick and mortar retailers to get smarter with their inventory and really migrating their online presence with their store presence. And you know, I think you look at like Nordstrom, I think they’re the best example of it where Hey, in order online pick up in store, you can go to the store, if they don’t have your shoe size, they’ll ship it from their distribution center, and you have it the next day. Yeah,
Jason Hartman 25:46
very interesting. So we didn’t mention hotels until just now, when you say big spike, I mean, compared to what is the question there was no for hotels the last 75 days or so. So do you know like have any awkward See numbers or anything like that for?
Josh Simon 26:01
I don’t have occupancy numbers, but I’ve talked to a couple hotel owners in the valley, and they were pleased with the progress overall. And yeah, so what is actually pleased mean? That’s a good question. I mean, Phoenix, I had several friends from Chicago that moved down here for the last two months, and stayed in like an extended stay hotel. And I think those have done overall pretty well the extended stays versus some of your full line hotels.
Jason Hartman 26:26
I agree. I agree, because they’re inexpensive enough to be affordable. And people wanted to escape those urban environments. And, you know, they probably spent a lot of time looking at neighborhoods when they were there and thought about moving because now everybody’s really realized, you know, we can work remotely. Not that the technology is anything new. But, you know, people just weren’t using it enough. Now, everybody’s using it, you know, even non techie people are all on zoom. They’re all on Skype. They’re all using all of the online Systems now. So that’s really great. And see those efficiencies will stay with us long after this is over. So that’s a that’s a good thing. All right snapshot here.
Josh Simon 27:10
Yeah, I just put that in there just Hey, we we are still very overall bullish. Obviously activity has been affected, but we feel like, you know, in the places we develop, the economy will come back. And I think it’ll come back pretty quick. We’re seeing construction costs, I don’t think there’s gonna be a huge dip in construction costs, but there’s definitely going to be some pricing impact, which I think is positive. And look, we’re going to do more deals this year from a new development standpoint than we have in the last 10 years that we’ve been in business in any single year. So we’ll do over 40 this year and you know, at least 65 escrows close so extremely busy year and I don’t really see that changing.
Jason Hartman 27:51
That’s You know what, congratulations that is great to hear. And that is so different. From the picture. We’re getting on the news. Media, you know, it really is just very different. But we do need to keep in mind everybody that based on your suburban location, and also property type. So it’s it’s very dependent on a lot of these things. You know, I’ve got to ask you, before we wrap it up, how about self storage in this kind of environment? I haven’t owned any Self Storage yet. I do have mobile home park and apartments. Certainly I’ve had a lot of apartments. But what about something like Self Storage, you know, this sort of specialized asset class? How’s that going to do through all this?
Josh Simon 28:34
I think it’ll do gray. I think in some markets, it was over built funny you asked that we actually are doing we have three projects that are RV and boat storage, which is very popular. I’m in a place like Phoenix and so we’ve got one project under construction Tucson, which is, you know, about a million people million person MSA to our southeast of Phoenix and we’ve got two more and what we kind of found out is like hey, if you Have these retail projects like a mall down the road or a bigger shopping center? If you’re able to redevelop part of it for, you know, an alternative views like storage or RVM. Bo, I think you can really create a lot of new value. And so we’re pretty excited for that and new opportunities that come with it.
Jason Hartman 29:17
Mm hmm. Good stuff. Josh. give out your website.
Josh Simon 29:18
It’s Simon care calm. Simon commercial real estate.
Jason Hartman 29:24
Okay, excellent. Simon cr e.com. Thank you so much. One final question before you go. And thank you for sharing this great information with us. Let’s talk for a moment about reuse. You know, and we didn’t talk about office properties. I know that’s not really your thing. But I think office properties. That’s kind of a big deal in the commercial real estate sector as to what’s going to happen with offices now that, you know, Twitter or Facebook has said, folks go home, you know, you can work at home indefinitely. And lots of companies are saying that and I think that’s really a good thing. It’s gonna be good for the environment because there won’t be as much smog and pollution or consumption. And I think people will like their lives a lot better. Not completely, it needs some human interaction, but um, most people will kind of like working at home, I think, at least nowadays, these office properties, and then some retail properties, not the ones that that you’re engaged in as much. Are we going to have a big change in zoning laws? Do you think in different parts of the country, maybe turning some of these properties into alternate uses? I mean, shopping malls you mentioned, you know, what do we do with you said that that’s a really hard hit segment of the retail portfolio. What’s gonna happen with these properties?
Josh Simon 30:43
Yeah, and malls are super complicated because of the ownership structure. there can be multiple owners that own different different department stores and then the core of the mall. And there’s lots of agreements that kind of dictate the rules and who can what, you know what the allowed reuses you know, that aside I think it comes down to having municipalities that really see what needs to be done now and not waiting till it becomes blighted. Most cities count on the retail sales for sales tax revenue. And so I think, you know, look, it’s a partnership on those bigger shopping centers to redevelop them before they come become blighted. And I think look, things will continue to change and evolve. And I’m pretty bullish on all of that. Like, we’ve got a couple malls here in Phoenix that are going to be redone in the near future and they’re going to be great multifamily, they’ll have probably some self storage in the back, but they’ll have new uses and they’re being reimagined. Is that a complete tear down or can you can you make a reasonable reuse out of that property in its existing configuration? Or, or is it just a wrecking ball and then build something new. A lot of it can be a wrecking ball, a lot of its reimagine. We’re selling about five acres right now part of about 100 and I think 10,000 square foot Shopping Center. We’re in the middle of redeveloping that was mostly vacant and we’re selling it to a charter school. And they’re actually going to use the footprint of the existing it’s about 30,000 square feet used to be retail space. And they’re going to reimagine the facade and make it a school and they’ve got their bus lane their playground in the back. And so I think it’s, you know, hey, how do we, you know, talk about being environmentally friendly. Hey, how do we kind of reimagine repurpose existing buildings? Yeah, but schools I mean, a school gonna look the same. So
Jason Hartman 32:31
I don’t know. It’s just hard to know. But yeah, that’s that is a creative use for sure. Very interesting times we are in. Josh, thank you so much for joining us and everybody listening. Thank you for joining us and happy investing and stay well.
Thank you so much for listening. Please be sure to subscribe so that you don’t miss any episodes. Be sure to check out the shows the cific website and our general website Hartman Mediacom for appropriate disclaimers and Terms of Service. Remember that guest opinions are their own. And if you require specific legal or tax advice or advice and any other specialized area, please consult an appropriate professional. And we also very much appreciate you reviewing the show. Please go to iTunes or Stitcher Radio or whatever platform you’re using and write a review for the show we would very much appreciate that. And be sure to make it official and subscribe so you do not miss any episodes. We look forward to seeing you on the next episode.