On this Flash Back Friday episode, Jason Hartman welcomes Thomas J. Anderson, the Founder and CEO of Supernova Companies. They discuss his series of books The Value of Debt. He breakdowns down life into four financial stages. Then goes into the levels of debt individuals should have at each state to have the best balance between one’s life span and money span. One issue Anderson reveals is that too many people take on bad debt early on.
Jason Hartman 0:00
Basically found creating wealth podcast by searching iTunes and immediately resonated with your message, you know, the great return on investment, significant, significant reduction in taxes, steady income that could eventually replace my corporate job income. Also, what I found very powerful is along with that message, I was impressed by the high caliber of your guests. And I remember listening to economists, investors, lawyers, authors, basically people who could present their expertise and allow me to judge their response against your message. So as an example, when you talk about inflation, your your ideas about inflation going up over the next few years, I could vet that message against your guests and, and be sure that what you’re saying made sense. So that was very powerful to me. Welcome to this week’s edition of flashback Friday, your opportunity to get some good review by listening to episodes from the past that Jason Is handpicked to help you today in the present and propel you into the future. Enjoy. This show is produced by the Hartman media company. For more information and links to all our great podcasts visit Hartman media.com.
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Jason Hartman 2:08
Welcome to the creating wealth Show Episode numbers 798 798. This is your host, Jason Hartman, thank you so much for joining me today. As we talk about the value of my favorite four letter word, debt, yes, the value of debt. Our guest today will be Thomas J. Anderson. He’s got a book series on this topic, we’re going to kind of dive into it and explore good debt, bad debt, talk about the value of debt, the levels of debt that he believes you should have at different stages of life. Again, this is the guests opinion, guests opinions are always their own. They are not necessarily my opinions, but I do like his philosophy in general about the value of debt, and I think it’s very appropriate. So we’re going to dive into that in just a moment. But first If you are thinking about joining us for the upcoming venture Alliance mastermind event in Las Vegas, I tell you, this is going to be a phenomenal, phenomenal venture Alliance weekend. We do these once a quarter they are part of my exclusive mastermind group. And you can come one time as a guest. Visit venture Alliance mastermind calm For more information, look at the past events, check out the photos, the videos, learn a little bit about the venture Alliance. It’s for people who really want to take life to the next level and have some add ventures as well. It’s the venture Alliance and it’s also the adventure Alliance. So we have a lot of fun together, and we will be at the Wynn Las Vegas. We have the former governor of Nevada speaking to our group, we’ve got some other great stuff lined up. We’re gonna have some very fun adventures. Hey, what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas, right? So, come on out and join us for that. That is March 10 through the 12th. And you can also see some more information at Jason Hartman calm in the events section. There are some additional photos and videos there and join us as a guest or get a full membership and annual membership to the venture Alliance. And we will look forward to seeing you there. Also our Memphis property tour is coming up in the not too distant future. What are we about? Well, I guess we’re just over four weeks away from our Memphis, creating wealth seminar and our property tour there. This is our third Memphis tour, and we look forward to seeing a lot of you there. Tickets are selling very briskly and very rapidly for that event, so don’t miss it. Go to Jason hartman.com. Click on the events section there as well for the Memphis property tour. And if you have not seen it yet, make sure you take advantage of the free 20s seven minute video on how to analyze a real estate investment, how to analyze a real estate deal. It is the crash course in how to become a good investor. And it’s totally free at Jason Hartman calm right there on the front page. So check that out. And without further ado, let’s get to our guest and let’s talk about the value of debt.
Jason Hartman 5:30
It’s my pleasure to welcome Thomas J. Anderson. He is founder and CEO of supernova companies. He’s author of really a series of books, but one of them is the number one New York Times best selling book the value of debt, how to manage both sides of a balance sheet to maximize wealth, and the new book the value of debt in building wealth. And you know, me debt is my favorite four letter word. So let’s go ahead and dive in. Tom. Welcome. How are you?
Thomas J. Anderson 5:57
Thanks so much. I’m doing great. It’s wonderful to be here. Appreciate it. It’s good to have
Jason Hartman 6:01
you and you are coming to us from the Windy City Chicago, right?
Thomas J. Anderson 6:03
Yes, sir. It’s a little cloudy today, but I think we’re gonna have some spring weather around the corner. There you go.
Jason Hartman 6:10
Well, you really sound like you believe that with given the title of your books that debt is a good thing. Of course all of us know that not all debt is good. Not all debt is created equal. There is consumer debt and there is investment grade debt. And those are vastly different. Remember, you’re listening to flashback Friday. Our new episodes are published every Monday and Wednesday. Tell us about your belief surrounding debt.
Thomas J. Anderson 6:43
Well, you hit the nail on the head. All debt is not created equal. And so I think that people can you know, companies embrace debt, a strategic amount of debt. And I get that there’s a difference between people and companies. But I think we can learn from the practices of many of the World’s Greatest CFOs. And so to exactly what you’re saying, I am against consumer debt, and I’m against buying things that are, you know, stupid stuff you can’t afford. But I am about having a strategy and a strategy that has the highest probability of success with the least amount of risk and accomplishing your goals and debt can be a big tool to help you do that.
Jason Hartman 7:18
So lay out that strategy for us if you would, and I just want to make a comment here before you do that, actually, it seems that the thoughts and opinions surrounding debt have really changed. When I started doing real estate investing seminars about 14 1314 years ago, I had to kind of convince people of the power of debt but it really seems like the the word is out and most people get it. And this dramatically changed in 1971. And a lot of us for decades really, and some even still, we’re kind of living out of our our parents and grandparents playbook and all beliefs about debt when that really the rules changed out from under them. Of course, I’m talking about the gold standard. And maybe we’ll get into inflation and, and its effects on debt in our discussion, but just outlined some of your beliefs about debt and why you why you say this and why you wrote the book series. And by the way, the series has three books, right?
Thomas J. Anderson 8:18
Yes, there are three books. The first one is the value of debt. The next one was the value of debt in retirement, and then we moved into the value of debt and building wealth. And each book is basically trying to get more specific to a lot of the things that you’re addressing. I think from a big picture perspective, you know, where I started with the value of debt is basically saying, look, companies have optimal debt ratios. Look at something like apple, you know, they have billions and billions of dollars of cash yet recently, they’ve been issuing billions and billions of dollars of debt. Why is that? What’s the value, the liquidity, the flexibility and the tax benefits associated with that debt, and its strategic debt debt that they could pay off by they’re choosing to have. And we’re you’re way ahead of the curve compared to many people as you’re hitting the nail on the head. It’s not just about as you said consumer debt. And I think the word is getting out, and generations are changing that if you have the right debt the right way, it can be a very powerful tool. Now, what I did in the first book, and then we incrementally went more specific was I started out with a framework using what companies do, but I made it more conservative that companies are in the business of course of probabilities where people are in the business of surviving first and foremost. So for people that are more familiar with debt, like you, a lot of people are surprised with my conservative nature. But I tried to take a balanced middle ground and make sure that people have an optimal amount.
Jason Hartman 9:44
Okay, so what is the optimal amount? And it depends on age and life stage, right? It absolutely does depend on age and life stage. So how many life stages Do you divide up into and then tell us the optimal amount for each stage? If you would,
Thomas J. Anderson 10:00
yep, so I basically break life into four stages of life, which the acronym is life. The first one is launch, when your net worth is less than 50% of your annual income. So for easy math, if you have an income of $100,000, and your net worth is less than $50,000, then you have one type of risk in your world and you have one type of debt. The next phase is independence. independence is when you’re really in between, you know, 50% in two times your annual income. So if you have 100,000 of income, your net worth is between 50,000 and $200,000. Then I move you into freedom when your net worth is between two and five times and then what I call equilibrium, which is between five and 20 times
Jason Hartman 10:43
and give us the debt amount for each of those stages, though you didn’t quite say it although if someone did the math, but I just want to make it really easy for our listeners. So that first stage the launch stage, you gave the example of someone making 100,000 I believe in income and what’s their debt and tell us the debt statement. Debt amount for each each stage.
Thomas J. Anderson 11:01
Yeah, so the book is designed to be very specific and actionable, where its debt ratio is actually what I did. And they took the Fibonacci sequence or the the golden ratio, and applied it to your life in different stages. So, in my earlier works, I’ve said that a 30% debt ratio is kind of an optimal number. But earlier in life, we’ll tend to take on more debt to, you know, buy a house and have things that we otherwise could not afford. So your debt ratio kind of moves throughout the phases. And so to address it, specifically, the theme is that until you have a net worth more than 50% of your annual income, I really want you to be conservative and avoid debt. So many people are checked to check, they take on too much consumer debt, they don’t have enough money in their checking and savings account. And so in those early phases of life, I want people to just build up liquidity and really minimize taking on debt in that first phase. All right, so give us the Though What’s the number? Well, basically in the, in the launch phase, I really like zero debt, build up your retirement plan, build up your checking account, build up your savings account, don’t take on debt until you have some cushion of liquidity, that so many of the bad debt stories that you’ve heard that you earlier we’re addressing are people that take on too much debt too early in life before they have some liquidity.
Jason Hartman 12:23
Okay, but this person is doing pretty good. They’re making $100,000 a year, so I thought you were gonna say they could have $50,000 in debt. I thought that was the equation.
Thomas J. Anderson 12:32
Yeah, a lot of people would, would have thought so and what my whole theme is, is that early in our life, and hopefully you embrace my approaches before you’re making $100,000, but right when people get out of school, they’re in their 20s or in their 30s. Too many people take on oppressive debt, they have credit card debt, and they just don’t have money in their checking and savings account. And so what I really want people to do early in their life, until you get to 50% of your annual income which you shouldn’t be able to hit with a little bit of savings. It shouldn’t take long to break through that phase, but so many Americans don’t. I want you to be very cautious with debt during that first phase. Once you’re cautious in that first phase, you now have a foundation where we can take on higher levels of debt and the other phases.
Jason Hartman 13:15
Okay, and I mean, but it just begs the question, doesn’t it, Tom, that we’ve got to, we’ve got to we can’t just say debt. We did distinguish good debt, bad debt, not all debts created equal, but what kind of debt I mean, if someone is 25 years old, and they’re making 100,000 a year, and they buy a rental property, where you’ve got what I call self liquidating debt, in other words, the tenant pays the debt for you. How do you you know, see, these equations are they get kind of complicated, don’t they? Because it’s different when the debt is for you know that that swanky new car, versus you know, that you have to pay the date yourself or your own home or you got to pay your own debt, or, you know, certainly student loans and all that kind of stuff. But if you have if you’re outsourcing the debt to another party, does that apply the same way? Or how do you how do you bring that into the equation? Or can you?
Thomas J. Anderson 14:11
Yes, you’re asking all the right questions. And so the way that I look at that, generally, I think most most people should have less debt early in their life and more debt to later in their life than conventional wisdom would say,
Jason Hartman 14:27
Yeah, because most most like financial advisors and that’s your background, by the way, is would say the opposite. They would say when you’re older, you should pay off all your debts, you own your house free and clear on all your rental properties free and clear, don’t have any debt. And when you’re young, you know, you got energy and time and you know, go ahead and take on the world, right. You’re You’re, you’re saying the opposite, are you?
Thomas J. Anderson 14:51
So yes, and you and I are going to be on the same page literally right when I get to the independence phase, it’s it’s in that launch. Phase so things that where people find or are surprised with my opinions, generally, I believe that until your net worth is 20 times your annual income. So if you make $100,000 until your net worth is more than $2 million, I’m gonna
Jason Hartman 15:12
like that. That’s a tough equation for most people. Yeah, okay,
Thomas J. Anderson 15:16
until you have that level of net worth, I need you to have debt. And I need you to have the right debt the right way at the lowest possible rate, owning income producing assets to your exact point, so that you have a higher probability of success in retirement. So, throughout life, I know you and I are on the exact same page there. But this nuanced part is not insignificant, that launch phase of life two people are too quick to take on debt, but they aren’t prepared for the curveballs that life can send us. And so before people take on debt, even if it’s good debt, even if it’s investment debt, even if it’s self liquidating debt, in that launch phase, I really just want people to have some cash and some liquid quiddity and then they can be much more strategic and right out the storm. So that’s a piece of my advice that’s a little bit more conservative. But it’s if you break that, check the check cycle and have some liquidity, you won’t get into all the troubles with that that other people have had.
Jason Hartman 16:15
Okay, good point. So we got kind of stuck on the launch phase, because I asked you a bunch of clarifying questions there. But save the amount for each phase make. I want to make sure the listeners get your take on that.
Thomas J. Anderson 16:27
Yeah, so the book is specific glide paths with worksheets designed for all income levels. But essentially, when you’re looking at the independence phase, I see now you’re in a position to take on potentially a higher level of methods. Some people might think typically what you’re trying to do in that phase is buy a home. And so I say, you know, you might want to take your monthly income times 39. And that can be a very interesting level to be considering there’s there’s math behind the 39, but that’s the exact number. So let’s say that I had Prior for that $5,000 a month of income, that’d be about $195,000 mortgage. And, you know, maybe I’m buying a house that’s a $240,000 home, which would be the average price of a home in the United States.
Jason Hartman 17:13
Okay, so what’s the next phase?
Thomas J. Anderson 17:15
So then from there, what you’re coming into is the freedom phase. And what I like to do in the freedom phase is this is counterintuitive, but that works out to be a debt ratio that’s closer to that, you know, 66 70% number early on. So I think you, you do leap up to a higher level of debt. In the freedom phase. My whole theme is that there are two ways for your debt ratio to fall way number one is you can pay down your assets pay down your debt, excuse me are way number two is you can build up your savings. I do not want you to pay down your debt and the freedom phase. At this point in time, regardless of where your debt is, no matter who you are. If your net worth is between two and five times your annual income, you need to build up a More assets so that you can have a secure retirement. So if you have debt at a rate of less than 5%, or maybe debt that’s, you know, tax deductible, Leo, like a mortgage and so forth, don’t pay that down, instead, build up assets, and that will mathematically improve your chances of long term success dramatically, because your money is compounding for a longer period of time.
Jason Hartman 18:23
Yeah. Well, I absolutely agree with that. And the part you didn’t mention is on that mortgage, even if it’s not self liquidating debt, even if it’s your own home. Of course, this is dramatically better on an on an income property on a rental property. But even if it’s your own home, and you’re paying the debt yourself, if you’re borrowing that money just for round numbers sake, 5% and inflation is two and a half. And your tax bracket is 40%. I mean, you’re basically getting it almost for free. You’re not paying any interest, really, I mean, the nominal amount, by the time you get your time advantage and then inflation kicks in to debase part of that debt for you. Pretty good deal, isn’t it? I mean, it’s it’s amazing like the people that don’t realize debt can be an asset and a very powerful tool. They, they they miss that they miss out on this, don’t they?
Thomas J. Anderson 19:16
Absolutely. And yeah, as you keep saying, which I can’t reiterate enough, it’s the right type of debt the right way. And so if you, it’s very powerful, but these themes of inflation and the appreciation and income on the underlying assets, that’s what you need working for you for a 30 year period of time. I think so many people are so debt averse that they take good debt, rays to pay it down, wake up at 50 years old and say, Oh, my gosh, I’m under saved for retirement and try to save in 15 years and you just can’t save enough money or have enough rate of return to make it in that period of time. You need to embrace a strategy throughout your life.
Jason Hartman 19:54
Yeah, you know, let me remind everybody that nobody ever got rich, saving money. But you know, saving is better than blowing it all, with, you know, careless indulgence instant gratification things too. So, understand there’s a balance when I when I say that, it just amazes me and I fell for it to very early in my real estate career. I used to think that, Oh, well, you know, making bi weekly mortgage payments or paying one extra payment per year, you know, pay your mortgage down in 18 years instead of 30. I used to think that was a good strategy. Now, I think it’s absolutely idiotic. You’ve got this incredibly cheap debt, it’s tax deductible. If it’s on your own home, if it’s on a rental property, it’s self liquidating because you’re outsourcing the debt to someone called a tenant. They pay it and hopefully they pay you a little extra every month to to put it in your pocket. It’s just why would you rush to pay that off? It makes no sense. That’s fantastic debt. Dave Ramsey, we’ll never get that. Well, he.
Thomas J. Anderson 20:54
Well, and you know, while there are very big opportunities in rental property, and so forth. I think what happens within mortgages is it there’s just this Balanced View between like what Dave says or people who just go to speculative and they try to do, you know, have no liquidity, no reserves, no money down on any of the properties and just keep pressing and rolling. How do we get to a balanced middle ground?
Jason Hartman 21:22
Just a reminder, you’re listening to flashback Friday. Our new episodes are published every Monday and every Wednesday. Well, well, the first problem with them, by the way, since I’m the real estate guy, is they buy properties that don’t make sense in the first place. They’re speculators. They’re gamblers. Yeah. And you know, of course, you better if you’re going to gamble and speculate, you better be doing it with a very small portion of your net worth. And you better have adequate reserves to save yourself because you never want to be forced to liquidate at a bad time.
Thomas J. Anderson 21:56
You are so right and that
Jason Hartman 21:58
staying power is The name of the game you know what I
Thomas J. Anderson 22:01
get surprised about with a lot of real estate investors and is that they won’t do exactly what you’re saying there’s there’s two things. Number one, they just kind of buy and hold forever. I think a lot of successful real estate investors think about you know, Sam Zell but right he’ll come in during a crisis, buy a whole bunch of properties at really cheap prices, and then he has a huge return sells them builds up cash repeats. The other thing a lot of real estate investors don’t do is buy real estate prices definitely go up and down. And so if you have, you know, too much leverage on an overpriced asset, that’s always going to be a bad idea. If you’re buying it in 2000, you know, eight 910. That’s a great idea. So similarly, real estate investors because of the cyclicality of real estate, need to have liquidity because what if that tenant moves out? That shouldn’t be a
Thomas J. Anderson 22:51
exoticness? It needs to be in people’s base case scenario. So right absolutely.
Jason Hartman 22:56
A lot of these people in in any investment, whether it be stocks, bonds, mutual funds, real estate, I mean, I don’t like any of that stuff other than real estate, but you never, you know, it’s always boils down to a game of staying power. And it’s not always wise to stay in the game and be stupidly stubborn. But you, you always want to have that choice. You never want to be forced to liquidate at a bad time, that that’s what market cycles do to people. And it’s also there’s another thing that does that to people. It’s the Big D word. It’s divorce, it forces people to liquidate, you know, assets at the wrong time. marriage counseling can be a very good investment in a bad economy. If the market is down,
Thomas J. Anderson 23:38
stick together. There’s no doubt about that.
Thomas J. Anderson 23:43
It’s and actually, you have a really important point there. That’s that’s worth discussing further. Let’s say that you’re a real estate investor, and you have a rental property and you also have a home. If you take $100,000 and you pay it down on your house. And a crisis comes and you lose your job. You can’t get that hundred thousand dollars back because you probably can’t refinance because you don’t have a job alone. Exactly.
Jason Hartman 24:08
Right. Right. And, and it’s even worse if things if things get bad. The people who get all the breaks it’s not fair. It’s just the way it is. Okay, I don’t think it’s fair, but it’s reality is are the people who are highly leveraged on the real estate at least, you know, when when Katrina came along and wiped out a bunch of people, the mortgage companies did a moratorium on mortgage payments. If you own your home free and clear, you got nothing, okay? I mean, you got nothing. When when the economy has gone through its cycles. People do short sales, they do workouts, they get loan modifications. And you know what people with a lot of equity, they they get turned down most of the time on that stuff. They become actual foreclosure targets because If you’re looking at if you’re a lender, and you’re analyzing a portfolio of 10,000 mortgage loans that you’ve got out there, and you look at the ones with 50% loan to value and the ones with 100% loan to value, maybe they were originally 20% LTV or you know, 80% loan to value, but then 20% evaporated in a down market. You know, you’re not gonna foreclose on the people with 100% loan to value you. There’s nothing to get, there’s nothing to gain. So the people you want to foreclose on are the people with the most equity because you’ve got a safety margin as the lender you become prey. Okay. So, if you if you’re highly leveraged, it’s counterintuitive. The lender calls you up, they send you a letter, hey, we know things are tough. Can we help? Can we modify your loan? Do you want to do a cooperative short sale and sell it and we’ll let you off the hook. It’s so wrong and unfair, but it’s reality. It’s the way it’s the way the world is. And I saw it happened in two cycles. I saw it happen in the 90s. And I saw it, of course happened in the last cycle where millions of people just they got breaks, they got, you know, the lenders just let them off the hook incentivized by the government through the bailouts, the tarp programs and so forth. So, any thoughts on that?
Thomas J. Anderson 26:17
I think that you’re absolutely right. I mean, you know, in a down market, banks are definitely willing to work with people that have debt. My goal is that all of that ends up being, you know, avoided by having cash and liquidity to right out the storm. And so, you know, markets will go down real estate prices will go down at different points in time, floods will happen, hurricanes will happen. People will lose jobs, people will be divorced. I think the biggest thing that we’re we’re 100% on the same page here is if you have money in the bank, it’s an insurance policy against all of that if I have 100,000 $500,000 in cash, that’d be a lot, right? But instead of paying down On that debt, the liquidity and flexibility that you pick up in all types of scenarios, including the ones you just went through is vast that embrace that flexibility. Flexibility is valuable. That cash is what gives you flexibility. So the property is not a good bank, the bank is a better bank than the property because the bank allows you to withdraw
Jason Hartman 27:22
the property. They allow you to withdraw when you don’t need it very much.
Thomas J. Anderson 27:27
That’s exactly right. That’s
Jason Hartman 27:28
when you’re when you’re when you’re well employed. When the market is up, yeah, you can withdraw money out of your house, no problem. But when things turn the other way, that that lending dries up really quickly, so yep, have control of that, that equity outside of the property. And that’s why I very much believe in the concept of equity stripping. What else from any of your books, Tom, do you want to tell the listeners I don’t want to just, you know, hold on this real estate thing forever and I know we got to wrap up, but anything I didn’t ask you or cover you didn’t cover yet, but you want to share,
Thomas J. Anderson 28:03
you know, I think
Thomas J. Anderson 28:06
what we’re talking about is now the investment side of the equation is important relative to the debt side. And with a little bit of debt struck the right way, you don’t have to have massively outsized returns. So forget about the days of, you know, 10% returns or 8%. But if you can have a return of 6%, and borrow at a cost, because of tax benefits, and everything else, as you were going through of, you know, 3%, you combine a little bit of inflation through time, a lifetime of 3540 years, these spreads widen dramatically, and so I don’t want people swinging for the fences. I think that it’s a risky time with where interest rates are with where the stock market’s near all time highs, bond markets, basically near all time highs. Real estate is a tricky market, but certain prices ie the bubble markets, the cyclical markets. South Florida, most of the West Coast, the expensive East Coast, northeast areas. I mean, those markets are just totally overvalued if you ask me now, does that mean they’re gonna crash tomorrow? I don’t know. Nobody does. But they are definitely way past the point of fundamentals. So be very careful if you’re, if you’re thinking about buying a property in Los Angeles, or Miami or San Francisco or Boston or New York, you better really be careful. those are those are gamblers, paradises, you know, they’re just very speculative. So I spoke at a conference in Miami, and they’re a bunch of real estate people there. And I, someone bought a property for around one and a quarter, I think, like $1.25 million. property’s worth about $3 million, they say, and I said, That’s amazing. Would you sell it for three and a half? And what do you think the answer was?
Jason Hartman 29:55
No, it’s gonna be worth more it’s gonna be worth 5 million, right? Yeah, difficult. Yeah.
Thomas J. Anderson 30:00
Exactly. I said, What do you sell it for four? And they said no. And I said, At what price would you sell it? And I basically, there was no price at which they would sell it. And so, like, that’s that so I believe you’re exactly right. Many of these markets are if you have a bunch of people who are buying just saying there’s no price at which I would sell, that’s when you start to see some signs that there can be some trouble.
Jason Hartman 30:23
Yeah, and when everybody’s a genius. Yeah. I always like to say everybody’s a genius in a bull market, aren’t they? Yes. It’s It’s really scary. It’s not like that Rockefeller thing I think, you know, he said, when I start getting stock advice from my shoeshine Boy, you know, you know, we’re in bubble territory. Yes, very, very good point. Okay, get out your website. If you would tell people where they can find out more of course the books are on all the usual places. Dan, just any closing thoughts? wrap it up for us if you would,
Thomas J. Anderson 30:53
yes. If you are welcome to check out value of debt calm. There’s information on all three books. I’m most proud of the recent one here, the value of debt and building wealth, which is a specific and actionable glide path for everybody, regardless of their net worth on how the right amount of debt the right way can increase the probabilities that you’ll be prepared for emergencies and not run out of money on your life journey. Good stuff and give out your website.
Jason Hartman 31:16
Or did you? value datacom? Okay.
Thomas J. Anderson 31:22
Check us out at supernova companies.com. But the main education site for books is value of debt calm. That’s what I was saying. Because I noticed here yet a couple of three different websites so
Jason Hartman 31:32
good stuff. Well, Tom Anderson, thank you so much for joining us and enlightening people as to the value of debt. I think it’s an incredibly powerful tool. It needs to be used with respect like any tool, but it is definitely very powerful. So appreciate you sharing today.
Thomas J. Anderson 31:48
Well, I really appreciate your perspective. And thanks for having me on.
Jason Hartman 31:52
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